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Blood Bowl ABBL Rules Discussion

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#91 Quite Dominator

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 10:00 PM

I just had an idea for an Inducement. Why not give a Wizard another weapon. Charge 200,000 Gold for the Wizard and his spell changes the pitch surface for the game.

#92 Gaixo

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:10 AM

If we were to do something like that, I would probably leave the cost at 150,000 and make it the only action the wizard could take (meaning he could change the field or lightning or fireball). After all, it costs 50,000 for the owner of the field to change the surface, it should cost considerably more in "free" inducement money.

Edited by Gaixo, 22 February 2012 - 08:11 AM.


#93 Gaixo

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 09:59 AM

And after thinking about it a bit more, I'm leery of anything that reduces a home team's advantage. There isn't that much of an advantage for the home side as it is.

#94 Quite Dominator

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 02:52 PM

And after thinking about it a bit more, I'm leery of anything that reduces a home team's advantage. There isn't that much of an advantage for the home side as it is.

That is why I was suggesting 200,000 and yes that would be the same. One action. You could purchase a Wizard for 150,000 for the fire ball or a 200,000 that had an added choice. It is expensive but like you said the home field thing and all. The inducements are to try and level things out a bit for the less expensive team. It is just an idea.

#95 Quite Dominator

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 02:53 PM

In the play offs do we use the Tournaments Rules in the living Rule book?

Mr Ray

#96 Gaixo

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 03:18 PM

No. The game is played exactly like normal, and mercenaries and Star Players may be purchased as usual.

The only difference is that the game cannot end in a tie. After two halves, if the game is tied, there is another coin toss (or whatever), with the away team calling it. The game restarts and the first team to score wins. 8-turn periods continue to be played, with possession altering each time a new period begins(no more coin tosses, in other words). It's sudden death, meaning the game ends as soon as that final point is scored.

The postgame sequence is as usual, as well. No doubled winnings.

#97 Viking Mike

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:13 PM

Also, you don't regenerate re-rolls when overtime starts. You have to continue with whatever re-rolls you had when regulation time ran out and, if you're lucky, whatever re-rolls you can gain from the Kickoff Table.

#98 Quite Dominator

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:08 PM

Oh OK good.

Now the cards. I have asked several times what rules we are using for the cards. I was told it is in the Optional League Rules. There is nothing written how we use the cards. The Optional rules have 3 methods for using the cards. One of them is to not use them as inducements, one is to use only them as inducements, the other says to add to the inducements table the use of cards along with the inducements table. There is nothing officially published witch one to use. I have been hit with the cards several times. When I bring up a question about how they are to be used I get numerous arm chair lawyers with what they claim are iron clad answers the my opponent pics up on and supports. Such as the idea of 5 cards as written. I am told that does not apply. Again several arm chair lawyers picked up on by my opponent. I would appreciate an official statement as to how they are to be used. Also the Sweltering Heat question as to do players reset after half time or do you just keep it going from the last kick off. As to what players start or stay off. By the way I have been going to the Portsmouth store for about 10 years. I have thought many times to get into the Blood Bowl league in that time. I did not because of the numerous times I heard and saw the arm Chair lawyers at work and it put me off. I finally decided after reading the rules to try it. That is why I would like an official word.

By the way it is true that I did not ask on here and that is my mistake. But you don't know something is wrong until it comes up some times and it does not come up until you are playing the game. You play the game in the store where you guessed it the Arm Chair Lawyers are located. Hence the problem.

Oh ya and I do appreciate the armchair Lawyer who set me straight on the failure to pick up the ball but not the pass rule or the fumble rule when you pass. He was not quite correct on those two points. Oh well there are bugs that have to be ironed out on loads of things all the time with living rules.

Thanks.
Mr Ray.

Edited by Quite Dominator, 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM.


#99 Gaixo

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:24 PM

The League Charter has the rules we use for cards. It's Option 1 in the rulebook. I was reading it from the charter when I made that ruling last night, I wasn't just guessing.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to print out a copy of the charter to have in the shop, as a number of coaches don't use the forum at all.

Sweltering heat is trickier. I've never rolled at halftime, but the rules as written seem to indicate that you should. The only clarification I can find is a BBRC ruling from 2002. I'll look into it some more.

EDIT: that 2002 ruling said not to roll at halftime, for whatever that's worth.

Edited by Gaixo, 24 February 2012 - 01:26 PM.


#100 Quite Dominator

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:06 PM

The League Charter has the rules we use for cards. It's Option 1 in the rulebook. I was reading it from the charter when I made that ruling last night, I wasn't just guessing.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to print out a copy of the charter to have in the shop, as a number of coaches don't use the forum at all.

Sweltering heat is trickier. I've never rolled at halftime, but the rules as written seem to indicate that you should. The only clarification I can find is a BBRC ruling from 2002. I'll look into it some more.

EDIT: that 2002 ruling said not to roll at halftime, for whatever that's worth.

Actually that is worth a lot. It gives us some what of an official answer any way on Sweltering heat.

I did not think you were guessing. I just did not know where you got the info. Now I see it plain as day. Must be getting old or something. So we are not using the not as written that follows:

Note: If a league uses both the Special Play Cards and the Inducement System on page 28, coaches should be allowed to purchase Special Play Cards and see which card(s) they draw before purchasing any other inducements.

We are using: As a special note, we are not combining the decks of each gold piece value - each must be purchased individually and are drawn after all of that coach's other inducements are selected.

Thanks for pointing that out to me. It is good info to have. I know it will come up again. Strange things like that come up all the time. lol.

Oh and to give you another excaple of what I don't like about the arm chair lawyers. Last week Robert came up to me and said, "I hope you win the Championship. But I heard that you are the reason Portsmouth lost the last Pro-Bowl." Now I wonder who told him that? Robert was not at the Pro-Bowl so some one had to tell him. Sounds like the work of the Arm Chair Lawyers. lol.

Edited by Quite Dominator, 24 February 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#101 Gaixo

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:43 PM

Also the Sweltering Heat question as to do players reset after half time or do you just keep it going from the last kick off. As to what players start or stay off.


Found a current ruling on this: Indeed, you do roll after the end of the 1st half, and those players that roll a 1 miss the next drive (at the start of the 2nd half).

Back when that other ruling was made (2002) the rules read differently, and said "after a TD is scored" as opposed to the current rules which say "after each drive."

#102 Quite Dominator

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 11:47 PM

Found a current ruling on this: Indeed, you do roll after the end of the 1st half, and those players that roll a 1 miss the next drive (at the start of the 2nd half).

Back when that other ruling was made (2002) the rules read differently, and said "after a TD is scored" as opposed to the current rules which say "after each drive."

Well good it is settled than. Thanks.

#103 Gaixo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

Rules proposals:

For Season Nineteen - Fan Favorite (derived from the Pro Bowl) would add 20,000 to a player's value. (down from 30,000)
After thinking about this skill, it's only a little better than an Asst.Coach and Cheerleader, especially because the player with the skill can be removed from the field. I would be moving to institute this immediately, but as the only two players with the skill belong to Rules Committee officials, it seems a bit unfair to do so now.



And here are the indoor stadium rules. I haven't decided how much it should cost or what the penalty should be when a kickoff 7 is rolled, so help me out. Or shout it down in general, whichever.

Indoor Stadium
Any team can choose to play in an indoor stadium for the cost of 100,000 GC (50,000?). Unlike turf types, this improvement can not be selected for free during the offseason, and even brand new teams must pay for it. Home games for teams with indoor stadiums will not be affected by the weather, so there is no need to roll at the start of the game. However, if the "Changing Weather" result is rolled during a kickoff, the following penalty applies:

A-The lighting/air conditing/whatever has failed and fans are outraged. The kickoff result has no effect, but the home team suffers the worst possible result during the postgame Fan Factor determination (-1 if they lost or tied, +0 if they won).

B-The stadium is damaged by the inclement weather outside. The kickoff result has no effect, but for each Changing Weather result rolled during the game, the home team must spend 10,000 GC on repairs. This money is deducted immediately after rolling Winnings. If they don't have enough money to cover this cost (including treasury), they lose one Fan Factor instead (no more than one point of Fan Factor may be lost, regardless of the size of the repair bill).

C-The ball has hit the roof! If the home team was kicking, the ball is subject to a touchback. If the away team was kicking, they may place the ball in any square on their opponents' side of the pitch. If that square is unoccupied, the ball will scatter as usual after having been placed.

Again, only one of those will apply, not all of them. Just can't decide which is the most fair/interesting.

#104 Quite Dominator

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:22 PM

Rules proposals:

For Season Nineteen - Fan Favorite (derived from the Pro Bowl) would add 20,000 to a player's value. (down from 30,000)
After thinking about this skill, it's only a little better than an Asst.Coach and Cheerleader, especially because the player with the skill can be removed from the field. I would be moving to institute this immediately, but as the only two players with the skill belong to Rules Committee officials, it seems a bit unfair to do so now.



And here are the indoor stadium rules. I haven't decided how much it should cost or what the penalty should be when a kickoff 7 is rolled, so help me out. Or shout it down in general, whichever.

Indoor Stadium
Any team can choose to play in an indoor stadium for the cost of 100,000 GC (50,000?). Unlike turf types, this improvement can not be selected for free during the offseason, and even brand new teams must pay for it. Home games for teams with indoor stadiums will not be affected by the weather, so there is no need to roll at the start of the game. However, if the "Changing Weather" result is rolled during a kickoff, the following penalty applies:

A-The lighting/air conditioning/whatever has failed and fans are outraged. The kickoff result has no effect, but the home team suffers the worst possible result during the postgame Fan Factor determination (-1 if they lost or tied, +0 if they won).

B-The stadium is damaged by the inclement weather outside. The kickoff result has no effect, but for each Changing Weather result rolled during the game, the home team must spend 10,000 GC on repairs. This money is deducted immediately after rolling Winnings. If they don't have enough money to cover this cost (including treasury), they lose one Fan Factor instead (no more than one point of Fan Factor may be lost, regardless of the size of the repair bill).

C-The ball has hit the roof! If the home team was kicking, the ball is subject to a touchback. If the away team was kicking, they may place the ball in any square on their opponents' side of the pitch. If that square is unoccupied, the ball will scatter as usual after having been placed.

Again, only one of those will apply, not all of them. Just can't decide which is the most fair/interesting.

I would have one other suggestion though. Make a chart of all you have suggested and have players role for the result. Also add to the chart that some one left an exterior door open and it caused a howling wind from the out side and the ball drifts 1, 2, or 3 extra times. Use a D3 to determine how many extra drifts the ball takes. That could be one of the possibilities.

Other wise I like "C"


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Edited by Quite Dominator, 04 April 2012 - 12:26 PM.


#105 Gaixo

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 01:45 PM

I think I'd prefer a simpler rule, so that people don't have to refer to any more charts than they usually do. I agree that "C" is probably the best choice, as it can lead to in-game problems, instead of meta problems that rich and powerful teams can just ignore anyway.

#106 Viking Mike

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:40 PM

I would have no problem with reducing Fan Favorite to +20K. As you said, it only affects the one player and when that player is off the field the effect is gone for the rest of the game. Part of the reason Flash doesn't add any value to the player at all. The +1 effect from Fan Favorite is a bit more powerful so I have no problem paying for it.

As for the Indoor Stadium Option, I have no problem with it at all. The cost to build the roof is just fine. However, if you want to make the 'Changing Weather/Ball Hits Roof' option more interesting and standardized for all (something better IMO than having to remember who is home and who is away) have the ball scatter an additional d6 spaces after the initial placement and scatter. That is similar to the current 'Changing Weather but roll Good Weather' result, which drifts the ball one extra space, and makes up for the lack of a chance to get the other weather effects.

Yes, my proposal will probably result in more Touchbacks being awarded by teams who rely on Kick for ball placement. But that's what makes the game spicy and interesting, especially if you take a solid backfield corner drift and then watch the ball bang off the rafters and fall out of play. :D

Now for a couple questions about Indoor Stadium: Can it be combined with the other turf types (Astrogranite, Grass, and/or Plush)? Are the sidelines packed with fans like normal stadiums for pushing players off the pitch and the ball being thrown back into play?

#107 Quite Dominator

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:23 PM

I think I'd prefer a simpler rule, so that people don't have to refer to any more charts than they usually do. I agree that "C" is probably the best choice, as it can lead to in-game problems, instead of meta problems that rich and powerful teams can just ignore anyway.

Nate you said and I quote.

And after thinking about it a bit more, I'm leery of anything that reduces a home team's advantage. There isn't that much of an advantage for the home side as it is.

Based on this and in keeping with the FOUR DIAMONDS CUT example of KICK-OFF TABLE. On a 12 for Intervention of the Chaos Gods: They use another chart to figure the outcome. Besides we would not actually be increasing the number of charts to use on a Kick Off. On the regular fields if the result is a 7 you have to go to the weather chart. So on the indoor field you would have to go to the incident chard (or what ever you would call it). Keeping it the same number of charts.

Also the most prevalent result of 2D6 is 7 the number for Changing weather. So if you play on the indoor stadium it will come up quite a bit.

#108 Quite Dominator

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:36 PM

I would have no problem with reducing Fan Favorite to +20K. As you said, it only affects the one player and when that player is off the field the effect is gone for the rest of the game. Part of the reason Flash doesn't add any value to the player at all. The +1 effect from Fan Favorite is a bit more powerful so I have no problem paying for it.

I have no problem with the 20K either. I will probably never get it but it does effect how much incentive I give or receive. But your reasoning is sound.

As for the Indoor Stadium Option, I have no problem with it at all. The cost to build the roof is just fine. However, if you want to make the 'Changing Weather/Ball Hits Roof' option more interesting and standardized for all (something better IMO than having to remember who is home and who is away) have the ball scatter an additional d6 spaces after the initial placement and scatter. That is similar to the current 'Changing Weather but roll Good Weather' result, which drifts the ball one extra space, and makes up for the lack of a chance to get the other weather effects.

I have no problem with the indoor Stadium Option either. The cost is fine. Mike's The D6 scatter is similar to what I said.

Add that some one left an exterior door open and it caused a howling wind from the out side and the ball drifts 1, 2, or 3 extra times. Use a D3 to determine how many extra drifts the ball takes. That could be one of the possibilities.


It gives you the extra drift Mike was talking about from hitting the roof. Just not as many times.

Now for a couple questions about Indoor Stadium: Can it be combined with the other turf types (Astrogranite, Grass, and/or Plush)? Are the sidelines packed with fans like normal stadiums for pushing players off the pitch and the ball being thrown back into play?

I have the same questions that Mike has.

Edited by Quite Dominator, 04 April 2012 - 03:39 PM.


#109 Gaixo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

As for the Indoor Stadium Option, I have no problem with it at all. The cost to build the roof is just fine. However, if you want to make the 'Changing Weather/Ball Hits Roof' option more interesting and standardized for all (something better IMO than having to remember who is home and who is away) have the ball scatter an additional d6 spaces after the initial placement and scatter. That is similar to the current 'Changing Weather but roll Good Weather' result, which drifts the ball one extra space, and makes up for the lack of a chance to get the other weather effects.

We can try that. The idea was to penalize the team who has chosen the luxury of weather immunity, but I'm not attached to that concept.

Now for a couple questions about Indoor Stadium: Can it be combined with the other turf types (Astrogranite, Grass, and/or Plush)? Are the sidelines packed with fans like normal stadiums for pushing players off the pitch and the ball being thrown back into play?

Outside of the lack of weather and the change to one kickoff result, everything would be the same and all other field options would be retained. There are a number of "realistic" explanations for having natural grass indoors, even if wizards aren't invoked.

#110 Gaixo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:08 AM

Thinking about it a little bit more, here's a potential issue with double-scatter. Say you're playing Khemri. You choose an enclosed stadium because you don't want to have to worry about rain, which is a killer for them (5+ to pick up). So you've bought yourself that advantage, but whenever a kickoff 7 is rolled (as Ray notes, it's the most common result), you've also greatly increased the odds of a touchback. Sometimes you'll be the one giving up that touchback, but for a slow team with serious pick-up worries, that's a nice trade-off.

So are we comfortable with giving low AG teams a double boost?

#111 Quite Dominator

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:13 AM

We can try that. The idea was to penalize the team who has chosen the luxury of weather immunity, but I'm not attached to that concept.


Outside of the lack of weather and the change to one kickoff result, everything would be the same and all other field options would be retained. There are a number of "realistic" explanations for having natural grass indoors, even if wizards aren't invoked.

The first paragraph I understand but the second I don't. What do you mean every thing would be the same. The same as what? So you pick an indoor field and then a surface like grass/plush/or Astor Granite. Is that what you mean?

#112 Viking Mike

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:20 AM

Yes Ray, that is exactly what he means. You pay for a roof to protect you from weather then choose your field surface (grass, astrogranite, plush) as normal and with normal added expense for changing it.

If D6 is too much of a shift for the low agility teams, I agree that they need not have too many extra chances at touchbacks, I could go with Ray's suggestion of D3 spaces of extra drift. The Home/Away arrangement of the original proposal is going to be too complicated to keep track of IMO.

Another question: Is there an expense to tear the roof off and go back to an weather open stadium?

#113 Quite Dominator

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:24 AM

Thinking about it a little bit more, here's a potential issue with double-scatter. Say you're playing Khemri. You choose an enclosed stadium because you don't want to have to worry about rain, which is a killer for them (5+ to pick up). So you've bought yourself that advantage, but whenever a kickoff 7 is rolled (as Ray notes, it's the most common result), you've also greatly increased the odds of a touchback. Sometimes you'll be the one giving up that touchback, but for a slow team with serious pick-up worries, that's a nice trade-off.

So are we comfortable with giving low AG teams a double boost?

Well then you can make the kick skill more important and it can be applied to the second scatter as well. The Kicker has found just the correct spot on the roof to kick the ball at to make it do what he wants.

Edited by Quite Dominator, 05 April 2012 - 11:26 AM.


#114 Gaixo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 12:56 PM

Ok! Barring futher input, it will be d3 scatters. Roll for each one, right? Roll the d3 and then roll the 8 that many times?

For simplicity's sake, I would probably charge as much to remove the roof as to add it.

Edited by Gaixo, 05 April 2012 - 12:56 PM.


#115 Quite Dominator

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:04 PM

Ok! Barring futher input, it will be d3 scatters. Roll for each one, right? Roll the d3 and then roll the 8 that many times?

For simplicity's sake, I would probably charge as much to remove the roof as to add it.

OK so if you roll a Change of weather on the Kick off table. You would roll a D3 then roll the D8 that many extra times before it would hit the ground and bounce. correct. :D

#116 Viking Mike

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:15 PM

Up to three scatters or up to six scatters are all the same to me. ;) Having the same amount to switch the roof on or off also works, but the roof decision is only made at the start of the season correct? One the season starts you can't shift it like you do the turf (which is selected at the start of the season for free)?

#117 Quite Dominator

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:36 PM

Up to three scatters or up to six scatters are all the same to me. ;) Having the same amount to switch the roof on or off also works, but the roof decision is only made at the start of the season correct? One the season starts you can't shift it like you do the turf (which is selected at the start of the season for free)?

The way I understood it you could change it like you do turf. The difference is you do not get to change it for free in between seasons and you have to pay for it to get it the first time as well. In other words even new teams have to pay for it. :D
So now you have something else to spend your 100GC on instead of a bounty on Boe's head again. lol.

Edited by Quite Dominator, 05 April 2012 - 01:39 PM.


#118 Viking Mike

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:14 PM

That's what I'm wanting Nate to confirm. He didn't mention a take down cost and from the way he worded the original it was a season long fixture to add a roof.

The cost of attaching the roof doesn't affect me because I won't use it and, aside from that, I don't place bounties. ;)

#119 Gaixo

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:36 PM

Confirmed. Roof can be added or removed at any time, but costs 100,000 GC for every alteration. Thanks for thinking of possible issues and loopholes, so I can tighen it up before adding it to the charter.

#120 Quite Dominator

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 07:50 PM

Has there ever been any thought of inter conference play during the season. Like one game per team. Now I understand some coaches might not be able but we could bring it up at the league meeting and see. It might be fun to see the results.
All the games could be played in Norfolk and sense there are more teams at Portsmouth we could ask for volunteers to play the out of conference games.

Mr Ray -_-

Edited by Quite Dominator, 05 April 2012 - 07:55 PM.






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